Maharashtra Vision Forum - vision forum

 2024-09-08 05:51:42

I gather not much, given the usual 2-8 range of F-stops on even my D7i. I also guess it is more on DSLR's with larger pixel size, with the larger dynamic range.

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Note that with any digital camera you can greatly extend this range by taking one shot exposed for the shadows and one for the highlights, then merging them together. There are inexpensive Photoshop actions to do this, there are some free actions, or you can do it yourself. This works very well for static scenes (think Ansel Adams or architecture), but not for ones with motion of course.

I originally did -5 to +5, but the -5 was pretty good and the +3 was clipped. So I redid down to -7. In JPEG mode: -5 is noisy but there; -6 is very noisy but visible, though some color patches are not quite right; -7 is there but the color patches are not correct so I wouldn't count it. In RAW mode -6 actually works surprisingly well. -7 is very noisy but the color patches are all there.

So, at +2 things looked OK, but +3 is clipping a number of the patches. At +5 the sofa at the edges of my picture is there, but the color checker completely gray. So I see evidence of the common rule to never overexpose your images! At +3 some patches were fine but others just turned white and no matter what I do, they stay white/gray.

On the Canon D60 shooting in raw mode, I can discern different darkness levels from about exposure #2 to exposure #8. This translates to 6 or 7 stops of dynamic range. For my Olympus C2500L the range is more like 5 or 6 stops. Note that the difference is not so much the quality of the sensor (or CCD vs CMOS) as it is the extra bits in the raw mode.

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This seems to also suggest that as sensor size is limited, yet pixel concentration just keeps on climbing, dynamic range will progressively suffer. Am I all wet on this, or do we just assume tehcnology will always bail us out on this? -- John Ellis

Going based on your chart, my camera goes from your -2 to your 7. Since I used a color checker the results may be different, but the checker does have a gray level and I verified the one that's about 18% gray is distinguishable at +2 while solid white at +3, and is distinguishable at -7 (I didn't try below that). I calculate that out at 9 stops of range. I am assuming you are allowing Photoshop levels adjustment as well as the EV adjustment in the converter. I definately think one should allow Photoshop adjustments, but I'm not sure on the EV adjustment (since it effects the whole picture equally). I have seen an example of people doing one conversion at -2EV and one at +2EV and then doing a merge in Photoshop to try to increase the dynamic range. My numbers would be something like what is obtainable if one did that. I could easily retry without any EV adjustments.

Here is the hard part; using the metered exposure create a table of 11 exposure settings numbered 0 to 10. The metered reading should be #5. Number 4 should be one stop darker (half the shutter speed or 1.4x the aperture number.) #3 is another stop and so on down to 0. Numbers 6 to 10 go the other way. I find this easiest to keep the aperture constant and just vary the shutter speed.

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Take a gray card, ideally a reference 18% gray but it doesn't really matter, and prop it up somewhere reasonably well lit. The card should have even lighting with no glare. Frame the card so that it fills 2/3rds or more of the frame. Put your camera in "P" mode and take an exposure reading (i.e. press shutter button half way.) Note the aperture and shutter speed. You might have to set focus to manual (any setting) to get this to work. That's okay we're not interested in the sharpness of the image, just the exposure.

The sensor size is very important. This is why he says a "solid" 6 stops -- one should be able to count on that. The sensors actually catch 12 bit resolution, but this does not equate to 12 stops. Still, taking a 12-bit RAW file and creating a 16-bit TIFF has a huge amount of information in the shadows.

Someone else responded to this, and I will interject that while it is true that just adding more bits doesn't add dynamic range, the key is that in JPEG mode your bits are given to you after nonlinear color/luminence processing. So the extra bits in RAW mode actually do give you a lot. It is clear in my JPEG photos that my poor color checker in the -7 stop photo has something like 10 total values to work with, and the bottom couple are noise. Not much available to distinguish any details. The RAW mode still has plenty of bits. I suppose it depends on where your cutoff threshold is for the bottom. With my best processing I could get a somewhat noisy but quite distinguishable color checker in RAW mode (checking all patches, they are more or less correct), while in JPEG mode I get a couple patches that are close but most are screwed up.

So much of what we were taught as photographers changes as advances in technology (film in particular) take place. Remember that!

I tried this, but with a difference. I used the gray card to meter, then used a Gretag Macbeth color checker as the subject. It is interesting to see what happens to the different color patches.

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Take a look at your results. You will find the gray card goes from black to white. The span of pictures from just more than black to just less than white is the dynamic range. Since each picture is one stop apart, the number in the span is the dynamic range in stops.

Note also that the fall-off on the darker side is more gradual and the bright side more abrupt. That means that when highlights are blown they are truly gone, but you can sometimes pull additional details from shadows.

I tried this, but with a difference. I used the gray card to meter, then used a Gretag Macbeth color checker as the subject. It is interesting to see what happens to the different color patches.

Again I will emphasize the point we both made: overexposing is a pretty harsh line -- it comes pretty fast and once you've done it, there is no way to get anything back. But you'll be amazed how much stuff you can get out of the shadows.

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I don't know enough to say whether this is entirely correct -- I do know he is vastly more experienced at this than I am. He's typically talking about range in prints, not on screen as well, if I remember what his usual operation is. From everything I read this seems to be in-line: slide film has less, the DSLRs match color print film. If you develop your own film and use excellent technique you can probably pull more out, but we're getting awfully esoteric, in my opinion. B&W film, especially good film developed well, can pull out quite a bit more. You'll see plenty of opinions on both sides -- some people think digital cameras get way more than color prints, and some people will claim digital cameras are useless and get far less.

where he claims the 1Ds is about equal to the D60 with "a solid 6 stops of dynamic range." Going on, he ends with "I judge it to be about one to two stops better than transparency film, and roughly comparable to colour negative film — but of course much less noisy/grainy."

Anyone know the number of F-stops CCD's/CMOS sensors can work? I gather not much, given the usual 2-8 range of F-stops on even my D7i. I also guess it is more on DSLR's with larger pixel size, with the larger dynamic range. However, is this like most color reversal film, where you need to meter more towards shadows or more like slide film where there is more latitude for highlights?

However, is this like most color reversal film, where you need to meter more towards shadows or more like slide film where there is more latitude for highlights?

if you shoot ONE image Canon RAW or the nikon equivalent, just process the shot twice, but giving different exposures in the raw> tiff conversion and then do the same process in Photoshop. Shift + click + drag brings in images in exact register.

I did the experiment with a D60 and a grey card. I could actually discern the card from the background at up to about 9.5 stops. The fractional stop at the dark end was so noisy that you would not consider it at all usable. I would say that there were 8 usable stops of range.

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Bits does matter when you're converting from analog to digital, then you can compress image to 8 bit and you will not loose dymanic range.

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You are correct. Technology can buy us something -- witness the D30 to D60 transition which made smaller sensors but kept the noise to the same or lower level. The 1Ds went full frame so the sensor size is actually slightly larger than the D60. Unless we go to a more squarish aspect ratio, 24x36mm is it -- no more room to expand while staying in the 35mm format. But we could have the D60 sensor size while fitting 16MP in. Other ideas would be going to Foveon-type technology which would gather more information in the same pixel size (please don't turn this into a Foveon discussion), active cooling (sensor noise halves with each 6-8 degrees C), or fancy noise-reduction mechanisms. But in general we will eventually hit the limit as you suggest.

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Color film has latitude for 1/2 -1 stop under, but given Kodak's Portra film, that's no longer the case, it seems. Portra has plenty of latitude.

Technically quite a bit if you're willing to pay enough (actively cooled CCDs or the 11-stop range of the BetterLight scanning backs -- more in B&W). But to be realistic, check out:

Now set your camera to manual exposure and shoot the gray card using each of the exposure settings from the table you created.

I think your experiment with the color checker is even more useful because it can show how our perception of color is affected by lightness. This provides more guidance on how to expose a scene to move the zones you care the most about into a range in which the exposure provides the most usable color and luminance data. With a lower contrast scene, you can move all of the zones of the scene into a desirable range. With a high contrast scene, we have to decide what to keep and what to lose. In general, digital calls for underexposing, while b&w film calls for slight over-exposing.

Example; If I measure 1/60 at f/5.6 in auto mode, then my table is 0. f/5.6, 1/2000 1. f/5.6, 1/1000 2. f/5.6, 1/500 3. f/5.6, 1/250 4. f/5.6, 1/125 5. f/5.6, 1/60 6. f/5.6, 1/30 7. f/5.6, 1/15 8. f/5.6, 1/8 9. f/5.6, 1/4 10. f/5.6, 1/2

Sure we all know that you can take two shots one under, one over, using a tripod, then merge them in photoshop and cut through one image to reveal the highlights. example: interior shot with sun outside - shoot for exterior and then interior and cut out the windows.

Michael talks about this in his article, and you can find plenty of other sources. If you blow out a highlight, that means the sensor "overflowed" -- the value is 4095 and no matter what, it will stay that value. You've lost information. I can't answer your question at the moment in the correct metering terminology as I am afraid I'd mess it up. But you can recover a lot of information from the shadows, while if you blow out a highlight it is hard clipped and there is no recovering it.

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