The absolute efficiency of an LED with reasonable colour quality is probably not that much larger than an HMI, although for me the deciding factor has to be cost. An Arri D5 575W HMI PAR with ballast is more than twice the price of an Aputure LS 600C, and the 600C is a full colour mixing, dimmable, interchangeable-modifier light that can in a pinch be run from batteries. Expensive batteries, sure, but it can be done. I would also say that the 600D Pro (which is the beefier, better-built, roadworthy version) and the 600C Pro are both reasonably representative of Aputure upping its game and targeting a higher end clientele. On that basis, I wonder if some of the big players in this industry will go the way of, say, DaVinci, which gurgled down the plughole with a shriek of "but we're high end, this can't happen to us!"

Things will continue to evolve and the engineering will get better.  Something must absolutely be done about the F35 fresnel, which is WAY too heavy, and creates serious danger problems on set.

Everything you say is absolutely right, with the possible exception of this. Most LEDs are light and fast, but the really big, high-power LEDs are getting pretty chunky. A full Aputure 600C kit weighs more than twice what an Arri 575W HMI fresnel does, although the HMI doesn't come in a nice padded rolling case. The 600C does a lot more but it is not a featherweight either in the lamp head or the ballast.

I installed the Lux light meter app to see where the best spots for my new plants might be. I've got really big west-facing windows that get blasted with the low winter sun for a couple hours in the afternoon, and the app was saying I had nearly 10,000FC of light right at my window. From what I understand, this is stronger than the brightness of the sun outdoors.

I don't know how many hours it takes for one of these lamps to color shift appreciably, because they are so new it has not happened yet.  I own 4 600D's, and a 1200.  They work all the time, and I have yet to see, on camera, an issue.  This may have been an issue with older lamps, but the new hardware is pretty solid.

It's worth noticing that all of these things are actually more to do with the adaptors that go on the front than the light itself.

I was trying to figure out what the output equivalence of the Aperture 600D or 1200D is to a comparable HMI. Like is the Aperture 1200D at full blast more output or less than a 5K Frensel?

Do not get too impressed by the marketing fashion trend that sells the LED technology as "THE ONE" with high efficiency. HMI also has high efficiency compared to incandescent, and has been used for decades now.

A very approximate rule of thumb would be to consider that a LED source is twice more efficient than a HMI with equivalent angle and optics (like a Fresnel lense).

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Now we can argue that an 800w joker with spotlight attachment puts out more footcandles than an equally outfit 600d, but I would argue that one should choose the right tool for the right job.  I am sure there are Gaffers and DP's which would need the extra few footcandles in certain situations where the output difference would make or break a shot.  However, I'm not so certain that it would make all that much of a difference.

the weight of the lamp head matters more than the weight of the ballast. If the lamphead is lightweight one can manage with a less sturdy and thus much more lightweight stand and one needs less sandbags as well. The possible issue with Cob led units is that the ballast to head cable is often extremely short and thus one must often mount the ballast to the light stand to get it high enough to make up for the too short cable so that the light head can be get high enough for the shoot.

The Aputure and Nanlight 1200w lamps are factually the same output as an M18 at about 30% cheaper to purchase.  But there are drawbacks:  The header cables have a finite length, of which I have sent my disdain to the engineering department.   They advise there is too much voltage drop over distances longer than 25 feet to efficiently run the led engines.  Well, I call bullshit on that. Engineers are always a wee bit conservative. They will figure it out.  With a ballast and lamp head the size of the 1200w fixture, there is plenty of room to shove more lighting in.

Jay, how many hours do you think to get obvious green on the big COB leds?  Do you think it's from the heat, such that instruments like mats wouldn't experience it as much?

Everything you say is absolutely right, with the possible exception of this. Most LEDs are light and fast, but the really big, high-power LEDs are getting pretty chunky. A full Aputure 600C kit weighs more than twice what an Arri 575W HMI fresnel does, although the HMI doesn't come in a nice padded rolling case. The 600C does a lot more but it is not a featherweight either in the lamp head or the ballast.

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However, for general use case, while the Joker 800 is probably brighter in the lab, real world use case the 600D can achieve the same thing.

A very approximate rule of thumb would be to consider that a LED source is twice more efficient than a HMI with equivalent angle and optics (like a Fresnel lense). A 600W LED would more or less correspond to a 1200W HMI, and a 1200W LED would match a 2500W HMI. That may be a little optimistic, though. I doubt a 1200W LED could compete with a 5k HMI.

I was trying to figure out what the output equivalence of the Aperture 600D or 1200D is to a comparable HMI. Like is the Aperture 1200D at full blast more output or less than a 5K Frensel?

Let’s not forget the joleko, I can probably get just as much output with it than having to buy a new light like the aputure 1200d. I’d rather stick to buying a new bulb for $150.

If we were comparing bulb to bulb, the 1200d is brighter than a 1200w hmi by over 10000 lumens (126413 for aputure and 110000 for 1.2k) but falls short of an 1800w hmi bulb, of which can be found with 165000 lumens. Now practically it's not as simple but that's on the luminous efficacy bit

The 600d head is pretty optimal weight and size for general use. Haven't used the 600c which might be heavier and bulkier.

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Part of this may be due to Aputure very clearly beefing up its build quality, probably in the knowledge that these things are much more targeted at a higher end market.

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The main advantage of Leds is that they are lighter weight and faster to setup for not needing long warming/cooling time to function. Often they are much easier to manage flicker with and it is fast and easy to adjust dimming without many drawbacks.

With HMIs one can always change the bulb if it is bad colour and one can match bulbs too. But on a LED the light source is built into the (expensive) light and cannot be changed to new one so it is not like changing a 100usd HMI bulb but one needs to purchase a whole new 2000usd light instead. That is pretty risky by my opinion so I am personally being extremely careful if purchasing any kind of led technology so that I can be sure I can get the money back from it before the light ages too much to be usable. So one needs to get the money back from it in less than a year to be sure that there is no huge risk purchasing one. It is the same with today's camera technology though, one can manage only about two years max. with the same camera body and after 4 years it is probably broken and unusable...

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Led mats can heat up quite a bit too if operated at higher power levels. If the cob led has a proper cooling system then I would expect the lifetime being about the same compared to a mat which is operated at nearly full power most of the time.

The point is that it's relatively easy to gather all of the light that comes out of the LED module because it isn't radiating light into a near-spherical pattern. It's easier to push the photons in a useful direction. The system is less lossy. As such, these modern LED designs are all likely to be more efficient, watt for watt, than HMIs, for no reason other than that they let people create more optically efficient designs.

On a shoot a year ago we had couple of Aputure 300d's which were a little over a year old then and were almost unusably green already. They were only used on two feature projects I think so the aging can indeed be incredibly quick. Though properly cooled high quality leds should last a bit longer, maybe two or three years before the green becomes so large issue that one needs to throw the light away.

575Hmi with electronic ballast may be pretty ideal size and weight. With a magnetic ballast it is way heavier than a similar output led kit and slower to setup. I personally use magnetic ballast 575's because got couple of them for very cheap... electronic ballast kits are still too expensive most of the time to really compete with leds

Generally they seem powerful because, with the high-gain reflectors, they are effectively PARs. It's a high-efficiency layout. They do quite well with the spotlight adapter, too, because the profile lens tube is pretty well designed and nicely put together. There is an argument that Aputure's fresnel isn't quite large enough and perhaps fails to capture as much of the light output by the COB as it could, though it's not clear how much difference that makes compared to a 575W HMI with its small lens.

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That is actually a huge issue with some led units, especially the Aputure Cob leds. Too short cable so that one cannot get the light high enough because there is no enough cable for it and one would need to mount the ballast high up on the stand to be able to manage the shoot. Darn Chinese saving couple of bucks by cutting the cables shorter ?

To answer some questions, after three shows using nothing but Aputure products, I can say that if one already owns HMI lamps, use them. They still work.  My current show I have 4x joker 400w, and 4x joker 800w - they have never been out of the case.  The DP insisted that we have them...... wasted money.

One additional drawback is donut shaped artifacts in light when shooting a high power mirror reflector led through a cookie or three branch etc to break up the light. The mirror reflectors create very weird light quality and one can expect some issues if needing to break the light beam this way

high operating temperature at least speeds up the aging a lot though it will happen in lower temperatures too. the phosphorus on the leds ages and that causes most of the colour issues.

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Part of this may be due to Aputure very clearly beefing up its build quality, probably in the knowledge that these things are much more targeted at a higher end market.

Comparison is always a bit complex since there are two parameters: the overall luminous flux (in lumen) and the luminance at the centre of the beam (in lux). A very narrow beam can reach an impressive value in lux, but will be unusable because it is too narrow. Even when the angle of two beams is the same, that does not mean the falloff are the same.

Jay, how many hours do you think to get obvious green on the big COB leds?  Do you think it's from the heat, such that instruments like mats wouldn't experience it as much?

The biggest disadvantages are short lifetime and thus large burn hour costs on leds (a led fixture like aputure normally lasts only two or three years before the leds are aged tol much to be usable and then you need to buy a new light) , the fragility of the fixture as well as cables and connectors, the possible fan noise which is more difficult to manage for coming from the light itself rather than the ballast, and the less punchy light especially on high power fixtures because led has much larger surface area compared to similar power hmi or even triple power hmi.

On small shows, I don't bother renting Jokers, especially the 400 anymore.  If I need larger lamps, I'll get M18's or M40's.  The 1200D is not an M40.